Bags vs Jars? (spawn)

Discussion in 'MUSHROOM CULTIVATION' started by Vibration, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    What are the cons and pros of using bags/jars, in your opinion?

    I have never yet used bags for spawn. I did 200 jars last time and it was a lot of work.

    Wouldn't it be more easy to do bags?
     
  2. rogue

    rogue ♥ Hooked on Mycelium ♥ Mushroom Doctor

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    I love spawn bags for expanding spawn :thumbup:

    Bag cons: More cost, more grain to loose if it fails, more fragile, more waste.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  3. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    If I fit 10 quart jars into a pressure cooker and I usually have them half way filled (hydrated grain). Grains expand from 50% to somewhere around 60% and after a shake they are quite around 70%.

    So I can't really tell how many quarts do I fit into my 23q presto (maybe 7 quarts of grains?) , but I know it's 10 quart jars.

    How much grain would I be able to fill with bags? More? Same?

    I'm really trying to be sure which are the pros of using bags :D
     
  4. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    .. cos I found out that I could be doing Rye as easily as Major Myc does. Grain to jars, water to jars, pressure cook, done.
     
  5. Larynx

    Larynx Well-Known Member Mushroom Doctor

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    Yeah, if you do anything on a small commercial scale, then bags would be the way to go. Bags are WAY less work, but you have to have a sealer to seal the bag.

    Jar Pros: Reusable, less to loose if you caught by mean green, IMO Jars are easier to handle in a Glovebox/or small hood,

    Jar Cons: You need alot of storage space, they break, far more work.

    I know there is more, but I'm kinda in a hurry, anyone else have something to add?
     
  6. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    Oh right.. the flowhood thing. I wouldn't imagine doing bags in a SAB. So I will need to invest into a flow hood to be able to do bags. Right? I think the time has come.
     
  7. mycborg

    mycborg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is not the place you'r looking for
    1+ flow hood, but if you have the hight in your SAB that will work for bags.
    Also you don't need an impulse sealer, you can use those plastic stripes witch u make a loop and tighten, I can't remember the English name for it :)
     
  8. rogue

    rogue ♥ Hooked on Mycelium ♥ Mushroom Doctor

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    Oh yea the pros of bags.

    you can do more grain at a time in the PC. I haven't measured but I'd say I can fit close to double the amount of grain if I use bags.
    It's quicker to fill one bag to PC than 5-7 jars that need cleaning too when done.
    I have a hood so in my case it's so much quicker and easier to transfer one jar to one bag of 5-7 quarts of grain, than to transfer it to 5-7 new prepped jars.
    One bag takes up less space than 5-7 jars.
    The bags colonize faster with it's larger air plenum.
    The grain is easier to break up both at the 30% mark and at the final stage and rebounds faster if done right.
    When broken up at the correct stage the bag of grain is evenly colonized and can be used to spawn a single or mutable projects.
     
  9. Major Myc

    Major Myc pasture pirate Mushroom Doctor

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    if i were you i'd use the bags for fruiting and the jars for grain. you said two hundred jars last time, cut that down to a hundred jars. each jar will inoculate two fruiting bags about four dry quarts of sub each. so your hundred jars will spawn two hundred bags. two hundred bags will produce about two hundred ounces give or take a little depending on genetics. that's around 12 pounds first flush from a hundred quarts of grain and two hundred gallons of substrate, not to mention 200 bags takes up way less space than the equivalent amount of tubs. besides that an ounce first flush is pretty conservative with the right isolate(which can be obtained from multispore bag grows through cloning the best performing fruits from said multispore bags) you can get as much as two on the first flush.

    edit: if you can use bags for grain then i would use those over jars i think, i just have little exp. with grain in bags but it is much more efficient if you have the equipment to do it very clean, a flow hood would be necessary to handle that volume of work. if i had the equipment i would go Agar>grain jar>grain bag>bulk substrate
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  10. Larynx

    Larynx Well-Known Member Mushroom Doctor

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    win!
     
  11. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    Very nice. I will now need to make a flow hood, yeeeees.

    Thanks, Rogue. Thanks, Major.

    That monotub vs bag thing is also an interesting thing to think about.
     
  12. HorizonSpawn

    HorizonSpawn Moderator Mushroom Doctor

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    "How much grain does a filter patch bag hold?"...

    Depends on how full you want it :p


    A common size is 4in x 8in, if I am not mistaken... But we are going to use cubic centimeters to keep the math easy ;) So that is roughly 9.6cm x 19.2cm... Which is 184.32 cubic centimeters per centimeter of fill...

    A quart jar, about 1/2~2/3 full is roughly 500~600cc... That will fill the above mentioned bag to 2.75~3.25 centimeters... Four quarts worth will fill it to 11~13cm, depending of typical volume used in one's quart jars ;) That equates to roughly 4.5~5.5 inches of depth...

    In a nutshell; about a half gallon of prep'd spawn will fill a 4x8 FP bag to 4+ inches :thumbup1:
     
  13. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    I will need to think it through 3 times what you just said, haha.

    Edit: OK, I guess I just ain't a mathematician.

    Edit: If I could fit 10x quart jars filled 1/2 to 1/3 the way I should be having roughly 5 to 7 quarts of hydrated grain in my 23q Presto cooker, right?

    Would I be able to double that amount using bags?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  14. HorizonSpawn

    HorizonSpawn Moderator Mushroom Doctor

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    Hmmm... Well; more simply put, a half full quart jar will fill a 4x8in bag to about one inch ;)
     
  15. HorizonSpawn

    HorizonSpawn Moderator Mushroom Doctor

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    You can easily fit 3/4 of a gallon worth of prep'd grain (six half-full quart jars worth) into a 4x8 filter patch bag... This allows for one bag per typical monotub size at typical ratios :)

    As mentioned previously; I suggest performing initial grain innoculation to 1/2 full quart jars. Then spawn one jar to one bag... Then one bag to one monotub :thumbup1:
     
  16. Vibration

    Vibration Active Member

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    Ok, I almost get it now. How many 4x8 filter patch bags would I be able to fit into my 23q presto canner?
     
  17. Javadog

    Javadog Moderator Mushroom Doctor

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    While I find that making sure that full sacks of grains are properly sterilized
    can be trickier* there is nothing like expanding spawn via G2G using a spawn
    sack. I can take one jar of spawn and G2G it to a full sack of grain. Then the
    fun starts, as I can mix that spawn sooooo well. The entire sack can finish in
    a week. Amazing.

    * now the down side. I have found that it can be harder to avoid a bacterial
    infection with sacks of grains. ....and grains do not really like to be PC'ed to hell.
    i.e. when I am sterilizing a substrate, I can totally nuke the thing with hours
    (as many as 3 or 4) of PCing without it being chemically altered. Grains will
    get cooked with sugars being converted, or some such.

    As a result, I have not used sacks for grains in a while.

    Take care,

    JD
     
  18. rogue

    rogue ♥ Hooked on Mycelium ♥ Mushroom Doctor

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    :shrug1: Four bags?

    And increase your cooking time to 2 hours @ 15 psi
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  19. Javadog

    Javadog Moderator Mushroom Doctor

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    That is just it Rogue. 2 hours is the prescribed time, but I have gotten
    bacterial spots when I only PCed sacks for that long.

    It was likely due to my spawn, but I was a tad spooked all the same.

    I am not giving up on the technique, but these were my experiences.

    JD
     
  20. rogue

    rogue ♥ Hooked on Mycelium ♥ Mushroom Doctor

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    :thumbup: JD, that was a response to Vibes Q. above. Also keeping the grains a bit drier than you would in jars helps too. I run my PC a bit high @around 17PSI.
     

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